I’m pretty sure, by law, snowmobiles are only allowed on Jackson Lake for ice fishing access. Looks like these cats were fishing for something else! I can’t help to wonder how often Mount Moran (and other north district peaks/lines) would get skied on a regular basis if everyone decided to ignore the snowmobile policy on Jackson Lake. To me, the snowmobile takes some of the challenge out of skiing Mount Moran. What are your thoughts?
I don’t see why a guided party would have snowmobile access or would even want it. Exum guides should know better and if they did break the law and leave video proof they should be fined and ashamed! This is total BS
yeah cuz skiing across a flat lake is really difficult. I suppose you don’t drive to the parking lot either.
Down here in SE WYO if you can’t beat ’em, join ’em. The road accross the Snowy Range is closed all winter. Therefore, to ski the high peaks and couloirs, you’re either facing ~7 miles of getting passed by snowmobiles and breathing exhaust, or a twenty-minute snowmobile ride. There’s a reason why many Laramie skiers and riders have stopped fighting it and bought snowmobiles. I hear it’s a similar case in much of the Wind River Range in winter.
Now, I understand that they’re noisy, smelly, polluting machines (so buy carbon offsets and give $ to your favorite environmental org!), but if ice fishermen are allowed to use them, I don’t see why skiers shouldn’t be so long as it doesn’t expand their range of use.
If it was up to me, I would ban them from the wilderness entirely. And thanks for posting this evidence of rule-breaking – maybe some rangers will notice and do something about it.
IN Switzerland it s totally against the law to use a snowmobile to access skining… alldo over a lake, given the choice; i honestly would nt even give it a second tought..
Only speaking in terms of my experience here. If its legal(skier access to peak), which I have no clue, then so be it. In the 48, this type of access is more and more prevalent. With the net increase in backcountry user days rising as I have seen in the Wasatch for the past 15 years I would think it is somewhat expected. But, the instant gratification in doing what they did does not last long. Skiing/boarding shots like that are mini-epics that test all ones faculties. Exiting a shot such as this, in the waning light of the day, pecking up to a flask of Jimbo or Jack with your partners looking back makes all the difference. Each to his/her own but for many self supported missions are the one that set the bar…
GTNP visitors center confirmed only ice fishers can ‘bile on lake with “clean” technology sleds. I like Koch alot as a person and an athlete but he clearly crossed a line here. Steve, you should forward this to park rangers and see what they think about it. Thanks for posting it
This should generate some interesting discussion. I think the rules should be the same for skiers as for fishermen. If snowmobiles are allowed on the lake I would feel okay about using one to access Moran – it shouldn’t make a difference what the intended purpose of the snowmobile is. I don’t believe snowmobiles should be allowed in GTNP but if they are already being used on the lake I wouldn’t hesitate to catch the free ride to ski the skillet.
That said, I personally would like to see snowmobiles outlawed altogether in GTNP and if nobody is snowmobiling on the lake I’ll gladly slog across there like a real ski mountaineer.
Incidentally, I heard that Mt. Baker in WA has been summitted on snowmobile…that’s kinda a bummer. At least the slednecks aren’t highmarking in the skillet!
It’s total bullshit that you can use sleds to ice fish and not for skiing…good on these guys for calling out the park service on this double standard. So if you golf a full round and shoot a 68 but used a cart it doesn’t count? Whatever…I use sleds alot to access summertime trailheads here in MT and don’t feel even the slightest bit bad for it.
To Alex, sleds are banned in the wilderness…entirely.
Just think about how much more day access skiing it would open up if you could sled on Jackson Lake…
I hope, if anything comes of this video, ice fisherman will have to walk out on the lake.
Pretty lame…although I am jealous of conditions.
When I earned riding Mount Moran it took two days. I would not give anything to replace that feeling of paddling a full canoe across the lake, lugging heavy packs to camp near the moraine, climbing/riding bullet proof ice up the handle, and dealing with a five foot deep runnel.
I guess everyone is about instant gratification these days. It is sad to see Exum guides making a decision that seems to go against their "badass" ways. I thought these guys were supposed to be the best in the business? Breaking Park rules…hmmmm, big no-no.
that crew is core enough to skin across.
they almost pulled an epic darwin fail.
I’d rather spend my day gaining vert and skiing the descent, not approaching. I can handle a long approach, but if it’s possible to avoid a 4-6 hour approach by sledding in, why not?
I think all the purists either need to get over it, or go somewhere where snowmachines are not allowed, or cannot access. Once again, there is plenty of mountains and access for all of us.
And that fact that you are calling people out on this blog and attempting to get people in trouble is shameful. Get off the computer and go for an adventure
“Forty unguided, BAT snowmobiles a day will be allowed on Jackson Lake to facilitate ice fishing by those possessing appropriate fishing gear and a valid State of Wyoming fishing license.”
Sounds like they could have found a loophole as long as one of them had the required fishing license and gear.
In my opnion, ‘biles (clean or not) should NOT be allowed in the park, or in any national/state park. These guys should have sacked up and done the skin instead of being hauled over. I hate snowmobiles, they are so loud and being passed by one leaves me seeing stars from inhaling a sh*tload of exhauzt. Yeah, they may open up more areas for day skiing, but it seems to me part of the fun of skiing these things is that it is a haul to get there, and the adventure makes it more enjoyable. Just think if everyone decided to use a sled to cut out the approach so they could ski their line in 1/4 of the time…it would be a madhouse that looked like the yellowstone west gate in west yellowstone…
Hey Sally
"GTNP visitors center confirmed only ice fishers can ‘bile on lake with “clean” technology sleds. I like Koch alot as a person and an athlete but he clearly crossed a line here. Steve, you should forward this to park rangers and see what they think about it. Thanks for posting it"
Lighten up.
To Patricio,
NO we ALL haven’t given up down here in the Snowy Range; ALOT of us still earn our turns and fight the disease of the foul stench and noise spewing fart machines!! Being abit older, fatter or lazier ISN’t an excuse to be selfish and get YOURS!!
Montana – as for double standards – I agree that that shouldn’t be; so – NO sleds on the lakes, for ANY reason!!
If snowmobiles are allowed for ice fishing I’d use them for ice fishing, but take a break and go skiing. Ride your sled out, cut a hole in the ice, drop a line, fish for a bit. Ski Mt. Moran, return fish a little, go home. You could catch your dinner on the way home, what’s not to love.
I’d also add this is why hyper nuanced regulation never works in these areas.
If snowmachines are allowed for fishing, then they should be allowed for skiing, period. That said, the various usage rules on public lands are all bullshit anyway. You can snowmobile in the parks, but not mountain bike or snowkite. There are boats spewing pollution into jenny lake all summer. You can mine, hunt, fish, drive motorboats, and land airplanes in wilderness. You can ‘bile in yellowstone, but not ride a mountainbike on yellowstone snowmobile trails. Until usage rules are based on impact, not bullshit politics, I have no sympathy for those who bitch about sleds. I think even “clean” sleds are dirty, loud, and obnoxious, but so are dogs and big groups of people in the backcountry. Opinions don’t matter, impacts based on science does. Which is worse, sleds going across the lake, or skiers spooking wildlife high in the mountains?
It seems a little strange that they would be allowed for ice fishing and not skiing. I don’t think they should be allowed on Jackson Lake for any reason though (and no, Patricio, we will not use one when we ski the Skillet). Everytime I’ve used a sled for access in SE wyoming or Cameron Pass, CO, it really hasn’t been worth it anyway. We spend as much time and energy digging the stupid things out of tree wells as would have skinning in the first place. Looks like these guys learned their lesson anyway. I think they have the potential to be nice when conditions are right (especially in the Snowies before the road opens in Spring or in certain places at CP).
This post is in no way an attempt to get someone in trouble. I have been told that this wasn’t a guided trip, so that would put EXUM and Koch in the clear. Maybe they did have all the required permits, rods and ice chippers. Then they should all have a clean conscience and no rule was broken. But I know if I was going to post snowmobiling across Jackson Lake to ski Mount Moran on the internet, I would damn sure make certain it also showed me abiding by park policies to avoid such debates. Hell, skiing is always better than fishing…so hiking up Mount Moran could be an easy distraction from staring at a hole in the ice.
As a Teton skier, I would love to be able to access GTNP peaks with a snowmobile. At times, I am jealous of those that used to be able to sled up the park road to ski Mount Saint Johns in mid winter conditions…or shred the peaks across Jackson Lake before the snowmobile access rules changed. But I don’t…because it’s illegal. I ski in GTNP most days because of the fact that snowmobiles aren’t allowed. I know many Teton skiers that abide by the parks policies and ski across it daily to ski rad peaks. This video was posted on YouTube and Teton Gravity Research prior to TetonAT.com, so it’s not like I’m digging into the depths of the internet to find this stuff. And since it’s in my backyard…I am going to speak up.
edit to add:
And yes Tom…skiing six miles each way across a lake to ski a peak with close to 7000′ of vertical in mid winter conditions …IS difficult. You saw what the water did to the sled…imagine what it can do to your skins.
If didn’t do things just because they are illegal, my life would be a lot different, and much more lame.
I’m surprised that this loophole hasn’t been used more often.
Maybe it is…but just not advertised on the internet. Seems like the more intelligent choice.
Good for those guys! They skied the hell out of your ‘backyard line’ and props for using a sled to get there. NPS…bunch of hypocritical jackasses. Sleds for fishing (let the lazy be even more lazy) and not for skiing (way more risk involved).
Thanks for posting and speaking out about, Steve. This debate reminds me of the arguments for and against mountain bikes in wilderness. Some argue that if horsepacking is allowed, with all its impacts, that mountain biking should be, too. These are arguments of the least common denominator. I can’t stand snowmobiles on principle, but if they are legal in a certain area, I’m not going to bitch and moan, I’m going to take appropriate action such as advocacy to change public policy. I’ve love to ride my bike in wilderness, but won’t, because we live in a democratic society and we all have the power to change laws through advocacy. Similarly I wouldn’t ride a machine across the lake; I’d either ski across or work to change the public use policy. Those who say "fuck it,I’ll do what I want and to hell with the rest of you Sallys," drop your ego at the trailhead and contribute something worthwhile.
For the record, just about anything in Montana can be accessed without a snow machine if you’re willing to work for it.
@rando
you said it took the challenge away not the difficulty. there’s nothing challenging about walking across a frozen lake. you sound like sour grapes. i’m with everyone else who thinks using a sled to ski or fish doesn’t make a bit of difference… unless you wish you’d done it.
Colin,
I agree that anything in Montana can be accessed without a snowmobile. Sadly, I have a job. Freeloading hippies might be able to pack enough gorp and go for a week or two to kill a line…more power to them. I take tons of trips where I leave my sled home. But, when I have only two days and I want to get after an objective? Fire it up and motor to the trailhead…I have no problems what so ever with this ethic. You?
Case in point. Just this past weekend I skied Ranger Peak. It would have taken you 3 days to skin the 32 miles of road to get to the starting point. We sledded in for a hour and were skinning by 6:30. Sure it was still a solid 15+ mile day with 7k of climbing, but I was sleeping in my bed that night.
All this bitching is coming from people who get passed wishing they didn’t have 6 miles of road to skin. Respect motorized closures, wilderness boundaries, travel management plans…but after that go for it.
This blog post, in my opinion, heavily detracts from your blog. It’s all negative, nothing positive will come of it.
The thread on TGR was deleted. Or at least I can’t find it.
Derek, unfortunately life is not all positive and one would be hard pressed to find something positive about using a ATV to access climbs in Zion just the same. (Assuming that that is also illegal) Don’t let your relationship with the parties involved effect your judgment.
I believe using a snow machine to get across the lake only perpetuates the selfishness to use a loophole for personal gain. Fail.
BTW, was that a ski cut he attempted before dropping in? Someone needs an avy refresher if that is the case.
I think everyone needs to smile a little more and lighten up a little.
Sorry Steve, I used to be all against heli skiing in the Wasatch even though it is/was legal. I’d get all upset and up in arms…………same with sleds.
But then I learned it’s easier and better living to live and let live.
Comparing this to using an ATV in Zion is apples/oranges. Sled use, in the context of fishing, is legal in the park. Like it or not.
Comparing heli skiing in the Wasatch to snowmobile assisted skier access in GTNP is like comparing apples to oranges.
Everyone has the right to their own opinion though…and that is why I don’t moderate comments on this website that disagree with mine.
Erick,
This may happen more often than you may think. Koch himself told me this past summer he had done the same thing in the past, even described how they brough all the fishing gear just incase…its pretty disgusting…and as much as I’ve enjoyed the time I’ve spent with him, i think he and everyone he was with should be fined. Have some respect, posting this on the internet is just as disrespectful as actually doing it…think of all the other idiots this video will inspire to go do the same thing.
jonny,
Justifying these actions using the fishing argument is LAME. the truth is no one should be allowed on the lake or in the park with a snowmachine. Those who are on board for allowing machines for ski access are so ignorant its sad. think of the implications: a bunch of inexperienced, unfit, and unprepared people in the BIG mountains…imagine if all the fools you see in the JHMR sidecountry and on the pass were up on these peaks.
Derek,
its possible this is the start to completely banning snowmachines in TNP, one can only hope.
Steve Romeo Wrote: “As a Teton skier, I would love to be able to access GTNP peaks with a snowmobile. At times, I am jealous of those that used to be able to sled up the park road to ski Mount Saint Johns in mid winter conditions”
But on the TGR thread you dissed the original poster stating he didn’t get “cred” for using a sled.
So which is it? Sleds, or creds?
Steve,
Nothing wrong with a casual argument;)
I hope they do ban sleds in GTNP………..I agree hearing the roar of a sled would/is distracting while in the midst of a bissful tour.
We’re all on the same side, more or less. This is just useless interwebz geek drivel while board at work.
I’m going to get fired. Then I’ll have more time to “Live To Ski”.
Well the Skillet’s skiing conditions did look nice & soft, and that downhill was no doubt a never-to-be forgotten descent. Some might be tempted to repeat that approach across the lake, but old time Jackson Lake ice fisherman have told me that a layer of water underneath the lake’s snow is pretty common. So hopefully the PITA element will discourage this from becoming a common approach trip.
I’ve certainly broke my share of GTNP rules…skinned up up Blacktail Butte with my dog, climbed without a permit, Leigh Lake camped from a kayak with no permit. So I can’t take a holier-than-thou stance, but…if too many people break NPS rules or push the loopholes as stated above, then a trend begins and the National Parking Circus reacts with an iron fist. In 10 years I could see a bunch of rich kids with ‘biles contributing to a fuct situation on Jackson Lake. Only 40 ‘biles allowed to ice fish on the Lake? If skiers start utuilizing the fishing loophole, then ice fisherman will be short changed, right? As is, I would no longer go alot of places off Towgotee Pass for fear of being run over by a snowmachine. DO you believe the ‘bilers should be allowed all over Teton Pass? If you believe snowmobiles should be able to ferry skiers across a world class lake in a National Park, then how do you reconcile that biler’s should be prohibited from using the Pass parking lot and head south? That area is “multi-use” National Forest, so has less protection than the Park. So following the Park rules might be a good idea if you want to be consistent. To change the rules to allow ‘biles on the lake sounds like a bad idea; especially considering that they were banned on the Inner Loop Road near the Taggert trailhead. ‘Bilers already go far up into the Jedidiah SMith Wilderness from the Alta side. Pisses me off. Why create another user-conflict situation on the lake? If biler’s hauling skiers go out on the lake to approach the remote mountains and not to ice fish, what is the difference between 40 Bubbas taking a spin out there with boom boxes cranking some Travis Twitt? I like to get away with breaking some rules for a great adventure as much as the next guy, but if everybody starts breaking the rules like me, then it pisses me off that the former situation becomes degraded. More noise, more emissions, more fat yahoos getting to pristine places they did not earn. I want to be the only one who can find the loopholes and get away with adventures like this Skillet trip. Problem is, I hate it when the once quiet soul-skiing experience is lost by too many yahoos doing the the same thing I did before it was popular. If you are going for a soul-skiing adventure like a mid-winter Skillet descent- then do it, but to stroke your ego by putting the whole experience online – that’s a little unbecoming IMHO. Advertise your trip and people are going to repeat it more, right?
who cares- you can boat access it in the summer, and powerboats are significnatly more invasive to the environment than a 4-stroke sled.
Good point Jim Wilson! The first descent by no other than Briggs himself utilized a boat. Are we dissing his style?
Everyone is bitchin about snowmobiles. what about the god damm boats. there are thousands of them. towing skiers and shleping fateys to go hiking, while they drink beers the whole way. i cant wait until they open the parks to mt. bikers this summer. then we should hear some pusseys really wine!
“pusseys and wine” I’m all for summa that!
there are places to sledski and there are places to earn your turns. i enjoy both but, the park is where you go to earn it. togwatee is where you go to sledski. it’s all just another way to live to ski, both are great ways into the mountains. if you use a sled, give respect to the hills and don’t abuse.
Problem Solved. Allow kite skiing in the park. It is currently banned but it is a no brainer kite ski across the lake, ditch your kite go skiing! having to have a kite and learn how to use it would still minimize the traffic to the dedicated few and you wouldn’t have to open the park up to a bunch of yahoos on sleds.
Correct me if I’m wrong. Isn’t Jackson Lake a watershed for the town?IMO- If so then there shouldn’t be any internal combustion engine use allowed on it summer or winter.
As far as accessing lines by sled, I’m not a fan of motors, noise or exhaust in the mountains at all, ever. On that note, there has to be a place for everyone and maybe some places for no one but the animals. JMO
Curt, i don’t think they were doing any chest thumping by putting this on-line? In the video are the guys saying like ‘we killed it and beat the NPS!’ or “we’re so rad nobody is better than us!”
I don’t think so. Most times i’ve seen any of those guys post it ahs all been about pure stoke, nothing more and nothing less. 3 of the 4 don’t have personal websites ‘bragging’ and chest thumping about what they have accomplished, credible or not.
Should sleds be used for ski access in the Park is up to debate. If one user group is allowed to and another user group is not, even though impacts remain the same, wouldn’t you say this might be a little contradicting? Should the group be fined? Maybe. Should the rules be changed? Maybe. Should these guys be stoked for possibly having the best run of their life? Absolutely!
And if i missed the boat about bragging rights with this video and their accomplishment, i guess i’m ignorant because all i saw was pure stoke…just listen to their voices.
One more thing, if this is what we are all concerned about, we must all have pretty good lives!
Steve, if climbing and skiing close to 7000 vert in one day is not a sufficient challenge for you (it surely is for me), then by all means, skin across the Lake. More power to you and I applaud and respect the effort. However, I have a problem with starting a blog with the clear intention of generating criticism for the manner in which others enjoyed the Park. Snowmobiles are legal on Jackson Lake. Maybe these guys did find a loophole in the regulation. So what? Why do you or anyone else care? They didn’t run over anyone that I’m aware of. Backcountry skiing is an entirely selfish pursuit. We do it for ourselves. It is a personal endeavor. We don’t win medals for it. It doesn’t feed the hungry. We do it solely for the purpose of satisfying some inner need we have. For the life of me I can’t understand why so many people nevertheless want to place rules on the “proper” way to ski/climb/whatever. There seems to be this mentality that if you don’t ski/climb/whatever my way, then your experience was inferior to mine and you are “lame”. I don’t understand this because what other people do or don’t do shouldn’t have any direct impact on whether you are personally satisfied with the manner in which you skied/climbed/fished on any particular day.
Based on your comments, I can’t image that a trip up Buck or Static is much of a challenge for you if you park at the Death Canyon trailhead. Maybe you should start all of your Park trips from the Dornans parking lot and skin along the road to the trailhead. It would certainly be more environmentally friendly, a more “pure” adventure, and a bigger challenge than driving your car those extra few miles. I would again applaud and respect your efforts, but I will continue to drive to the trailhead.
One last comment to those of you who hate snowmobiles. I have no problem with folks who don’t like them. To each their own. I happen to like backcountry skiing and snowmobiling. However, for each person who believes that snowmobiles should be banned from all Park or Forest lands there is another person who would like to see all human intrusion banned or severely limited in those same areas. One day you are fighting to keep snowmobiles out and the next day you might be fighting to keep skiing in. It is a slippery slope. I think it is incumbent upon all of us to work together to keep our public lands open and accessible to all. Trying to limit one user group for the benefit of another user group, in my opinion, does not further the ball.
I live up at Signal Mountain Lodge on the lake, which is the major jumping-off point for snowmobiles on the lake. Several of us are avid backcountry skiers, but we resist the urge to go across the lake on snowmachines, even with fishing poles. Not many people use them. Most ice fishermen drag their gear behind them on a sled onto the lake. Every year a few people ski Mt. Moran with a snowmobile, it is going to happen. I am not surprised, but then again most people don’t post it on YouTube. I think that if the Rangers see this they should issue fines to those guys involved. It is just like speeding in my opinion.
The larger point is that this is counterproductive to the skiing community. A well respected guide and mountaineer like Koch should know better than to do something like this. It will encourage more people to do it and will piss off the Park Service. Every local thinks they own this park, think they have more of a right to it and everything in it than tourists, that it is their own personal playground. But locals treat it the worst. If we keep skiing with snowmachines in the park, riding our mountain bikes down hiking trails, fishing and kayaking through closed areas, ignoring wildlife closures because the line looks good, and generally being entitled and greedy like this- it is going to bite our community hard. You may not agree with or even like Park Service, but they hold all the cards, and if they want to take things away from us to punish us as skiers- then they can and will. Going outside of their rules is going to hurt all of us that play by them.
well said matt
Matt – well thought out and very well stated. I tend to agree with your comments. So….I guess we are skinning from Albertson’s this weekend…if so I’m going to start tomorrow morning.
I highly doubt that this was an actual guided trip. It is most likely an Exum guide just out with some friends skiing. They did “break the law” per say, however, it is allowed for fisherman so why not them. From an environmental concern, snowmobiles are bad?..and so is the car that brought you to the trail head. I think there are more eminent concerns than this; the footage, however, is sweet. Deep powder and nice vid. Alex and others..I think banning is a little extreme..plus they most likely will help you out one day in the mountains.
Matt, while I agree with some of your comments, I think the park has set forth the “rule” and way in which we will ski peaks in GTNP…and it is up to us to abide by them…not find loopholes or ways to break them under the radar. Fine…go ahead and use a snowmobile to access the Skillet, but don’t post it all over the web for others…that abide by the rules…to see.
Spare me the sarcastic comments…because they don’t argue the point at all. And I don’t think this is about people hating snowmobiles…it’s about people breaking the rules that most of us locals respect.
Steve,
I remember a post from last year where you bitched about getting a traffic violation for running a stop sign or something. You broke a traffic “rule”, and thought you had every right to not stop becuase it was early and you were providing stoke, etc…. Now you are upset with a Teton Legend, AKA Stephen Koch, for breaking the NPS rules? So they broke the rules, which one of us hasn’t in some way or another at some point in our lives. Give the guys a break, which one of us if we were invited on the trip would have actually said, “Um excuse me, i am going to skin across the lake because sledding is against the rules…”
No tr’s of your own this year so you knock others?
Tune in tomorrow Sully.
And I think there would actually be many people that would turn down this trip…since it would suck to be given a violation by one of our peers/friends that work for the park service enforcing the laws. With your logic, it seems that one could do anything they want in regards to everything…and who would we be to question their actions.
Edit to add:
I don’t really see how it relates to this argument…but for the record…that ticket was dismissed.
Feel free to question whatever you want, however we are not taking about murder here, we are talking about a fellow jacksonite. Maybe jackson would have more community if we all weren’t judging each other.
I’m on the fence about whether or not I would use a sled to access Moran. On the one hand its pretty lame that fishermen get the sole exemption to the no snowmobiles rule. It should be sleds OK or no sleds, pick one, but none of this exemptions crap. I personally would feel slightly uncomfortable with finding the loophole and exploiting it, but it’s probably not illegal. What defines a fisherman? Does carrying the gear and having a license count? Do you need to have actually drilled a hole in the ice? Its all pretty grey and ambiguous. However, one thing is clear to me. Stretching the boundaries of what is legal/ethical on something like this, then posting your video on youtube is downright stupid and is just asking for controversy. Kind of reminds me of Dean Potter and the whole Delicate Arch saga…
Hey Big Chris-
Jackson Lake is actually not a watershed for the town of Jackson. It is the uppermost reservoir of the Upper Snake River Basin and therefore its waters irrigate the “famous” potato fields of Idaho as well as sugar beets, barley, alfalfa, and other crops in Washington and Oregon. Some is also used for hydroelectric energy production. As far as I know we get “our” water from a fairly substantial aquifer. Come on down the river this summer and we can check out some lines! -Peace out
Thanks Reed!
Damn…that trip looks like a hoot!!! My guess is, these cats don’t have trustfunds and had to get the job done sooner than later. In reality, this argument against ‘biles’ for skiers is irrelavant. Do you drive a car? The damage you do driving your 50k dollar car/truck/suv to The Vill on the environment is the same or worse. Check your EGO’s at the door. I wish I could afford a ‘bile’ myself. I ride ride moto in the woods in the summer and hardly see a soul except for the random horse pack crew who’s cutting down timber to find a better way around an obstacle. And these people OWN the wilderness areas!! I’ll do BC assisted with a ‘bile’ any chance I can get b/c it’s alot of fun and adds a new element to the adventure. Ever dug out a sled? Just b/c you are using one doesn’t mean the conclusion is foregone…see the end of the video. Do it the hard way or the "easy" way, your choice. Don’t make the "FREEDOM TO MAKE CHOICES" more difficult on us folks with open minds.
Well, given that this video featured my sled I guess I should add to the fire….. For many years we did sled regularly across the lake to ski North Tetons. On one occasion took an unexpected bath (Jan 3 2000). While skinning across might be more aesthetic I do have a job where I work seven days a week, and time constraints would not have allowed that skiing otherwise. And lake was already full of noisy sleds and snoplanes. Concern expressed about too many folks doing this now is probably unwarranted – only 4 strokes are now allowed, and they are expensive and more to the point way too heavy – the lake often has a layer of slush on the ice which if you are unlucky, which you are going to be, will bog those machines down in seconds, and getting mammoth pieces of metal out of the slush can be a whole lot more intense than skiing the Skillet. (watch the video) I guess we won’t be seeing this activity take off.
What maybe I find disappointing about these posts is the omission of concern about how much of our backcountry is being invaded by those machines – going deliberaely or ingnorantly into Wilderness and WSAs (Jackson Lake is neither). Bowls we skiied 20 years ago in the Palisades and Togwotee are ripped to pieces by machines, to the detriment of skiers, wildlife and the atmosphere. The Forest Service ignores our complaints, in part due to our lack of numbers. Maybe if some of the energy from submissions above could go into that problem we could get somewhere. Suggest you contact Winter Wildlands Assoc. (Forrest McCarthy is the local rep) and help out.
it seems to me that many of the comments to steve’s post pertain to whether or not the NPS’s rule to allow ‘bile access for fisherman but not skiers is right.
i personally think it is a silly distinction to make; however, that very distinction HAS been made.
i don’t recall seeing anything in the video or the posts made by the individuals who did this (and filmed themselves for "stoke" or internet bragging rights (is there a difference these days?)) about some type of protest of the inherent contradiction of this particular NPS rule. therefore, i can only assume they broke the rule in order to make their day easier and get the line in good condition.
i admire the winter ascent and descent. what skier wouldn’t drool at 7,000′ of perfect pow?
it’s important, i think, to note that part of the reason there WAS untracked pow for their descent was that snowmobiles are NOT allowed for skier access. therefore, these guys used that to their advantage, knew that the peak would likely not have been skied recently (most people obey the rules) — or that they could pass anyone on the way to the base.
these guys knew what they were doing. one (tgr’s "stoysluttie1") does maintain a blog viewable by the public. this isn’t an issue about whether they get "credit" for the descent. (who cares?) it’s about ethics.
most of the party came in from out-of-town, ignored park regulations, and bragged about it on the internet. these guys are pretty easily identifiable. hell, derek knows them (and seems to have let his relationship with them cloud the issue at hand). they made their bed, they chose to include the snowmobiles in their edited video, and they are adults who can handle consequences. always easier to shit in someone else’s backyard than one’s own, though.
give ’em props for climbing 7,000′. give ’em props for doing the full descent in pow. but why give them any love for using prohibited means in an effort to meet their personal goals (snag the line, in condition, on their time schedule).
as for whether it’s a guided trip or not…. there’s an exum jacket in there. it’s particularly sad (selfish!) when a local is involved. sully’s talking about a "community" in jackson. personally, i think steve’s premise hinges upon the fact that a community is based upon common acceptance of mutually-agreed-upon rules. if everyone breaks the rules, sully, we don’t have community at all — we have anarchy. why do some get a pass on breaking the rules and, in the process, infringe upon the rights of others.
perhaps some of you giving props for snowmobile usage (there clearly was no fishing purpose for this trip — delivery or pick-up) might feel different if you were earning your ascent/descent and making your way across the lake, only to be passed by this group (and, for the sake of argument, 3 other groups on ‘biles) on the way. think about both sides.
PS i see other comments about damage done to the environment while driving to the trailhead. that’s not the issue here. one’s legal, the other’s (currently, right or wrong) not.
i agree with colin. there are plenty of ways to work toward change. these guys were out for themselves, screw everyone else.
steve and many others COULD break the rules — it’s not hard for us to get snowmobile access across the lake. it sucks to watch others accomplish what they otherwise would not do (winter attempt on moran, for instance, coming up from park city with only a 48-hour window) if they had to use only legal methods.
down here at post #732 I dont think anyone is reading still….but….I am not suprised in the least that Stephen would find this loophole and exploit it, video it and post it on the web.
of all the “Teton Legends” as Sully puts it, he is they one who seems to somehow out spray the best of them. Props to his ticks in the mountains, but with his website and his ‘fame’ he should lead by example in this little community, not exploit something we all love.
peace.
you guys are a bunch of whiners.
nearly all the 1st descents in the tetons were pioneered by people who skied illegal OB at the resort all the time.
figures that none of you know the spirit in which things were done back in the day yet you follow the boys track around like puppy dogs.
koch has always sprayed about his accomplishments now youtube means everyone can listen.
Can someone please show me where on the TNP site does talk about sled use for fishing only? I can’t seem to find it anywhere and if these guys only had short notice to go for it, i doubt they knew the regulations.
I’d also like to note that they didn’t do it covertly seeing it was pretty light out at the start, they had no fishing gear on them to make it look like they were gonna go fishing, nor did they drill a hole, park the sled, and pretend to fish. At least not in the video.
I personally think we are all overboard on this issue and should do somethig about the regulations instead of doign what ALL Americans do and that is hope omwebody else will take care of the problem. Instead of complaining about here on the internet, why don’t the locals stand up, ban snowmachines from the Park entirely instead of for all users groups but one, and be proactive. That way, a trip like this would never happen and we wouldn’t be discussign it today.
But maybe this was a blessing in disguise?
Side note, i googled stoysluttie1 and found no maintained blog, just a bunch of TR stoke on TGR. And Eric’s comment “it sucks to watch others accomplish what they otherwise would not do (winter attempt on moran, for instance, coming up from park city with only a 48-hour window) if they had to use only legal methods,” have you seen what these cats (as steve called em) have accomplished? I don’t think they would have a problem walking across the Lake to get the line.
A snowmobile is alot more polluting than the average car per mile, even the 4 strokes. And they are a hell of a lot more noisy. So I don’t think the car argument has any merit whatsoever.
Mt. Moran is only a 6000′ foot rise, not 7000′.
Rationalizing that it is ok because of old ski pioneering and people’s status in the valley and ‘they do that, so I can do this’ is stupid. The issue doesn’t have anything to do with the skiing, the skiing is great. If they hadn’t put the part with the ‘bile on the video, we would all be excited about the run and not know/care. Taking the sled across and posting it on YouTube is stupid. They should get a ticket.
The snowmobile issue is so much larger than our greedy little community and bruce is right. What is needed are not double standards for snowmobiles anywhere. I am honestly more pissed off that I have to pay hundreds of dollars to get into Yellowstone in the winter than about this (because access is so limited and controlled). While I agree with limiting/eliminating snowmobiles in certain places, the issue is too politicized on the national scene for us to make a case or difference about getting across the lake.
well all of you that dont break any laws or rules ever or anymore, please send me the rest of your bag!
anyone wanna ski moran in a day unassisted. i’m in. some of us do think its a possibility. steve’s tried and i know he’d be in for the challenge. i bet you’d puke before its over.
snowmoboarder wrote:
“And Eric’s comment “it sucks to watch others accomplish what they otherwise would not do (winter attempt on moran, for instance, coming up from park city with only a 48-hour window) if they had to use only legal methods,” have you seen what these cats (as steve called em) have accomplished? I don’t think they would have a problem walking across the Lake to get the line.”
not certain precisely what your point is, here, as i don’t think whether or not they have hiked from death valley to the highest point in arizona has any bearing on using illegal means to access this particular terrain during this particular incident. (and, yes, that (or something really similar) was one of the adventures documented by stoysluttie1 and crew.)
are you saying that because they CAN (or have in the past) done long slogs, they can violate the NPS rule? please clarify for me as i would like to understand.
the fact remains that they did not slog across the lake. would you have been pissed if they passed by you on a snowmobile as you slogged across the lake, only to get sloppy seconds?
you also wrote:
“I can’t seem to find it anywhere and if these guys only had short notice to go for it, i doubt they knew the regulations.”
well, had stoysluttie1 not turned tail and deleted his posts on TGR, you would see that they quite clearly knew what they were doing. he deleted 2 threads where he bragged of his exploits — sorry…contributed “stoke”. he also openly dimissed the concerns that were expressed by using illegal means and did not respond to at least one set of questions about the method.
they’re in damage control mode — probably in hiding. simple google searches reveal blogs, photo sites, past posts, real names, etc.
oh…and i see that someone above wrote how these guys don’t have unlimited time, are not trust-funders, etc. well… through information posted to the public, at least one of these gentlemen talks lists that he does not work and what he does is “adventure” (ski, bike, etc.). that would imply they did have time to do it the currently legal way.
to tom, above (“nearly all the 1st descents in the tetons were pioneered by people who skied illegal OB at the resort all the time. figures that none of you know the spirit in which things were done back in the day yet you follow the boys track around like puppy dogs.”), you miss at least one significant difference. the pioneers of which you speak were having fun but also consciously making a stand that the resort boundaries should be opened as the ropes prevented access to public (OUR!) lands. there was a distinct element of civil disobedience.
the S.K., stoysluttie1 (A.S.), et. al., adventure had no such element — and indeed even if it was an attempt to get the NPS to change their rules (it clearly was not), it was a poor way to go about it. it was, plain and simple, about people with an appetite for pow (we can all relate) using whatever means they could to achieve their satisfaction regardless of what the community thinks. the fact that they needed affirmation from people on the internet makes it both sad and idiotic.
wonder if they NPS will be making some calls.
[PS all the key posts are cached on the internet, so stoysluttie1’s tail-between-the-legs deletion was a nice effort but also not well thought out.)
just re-watched that video.
to those that say this was an unguided trip, at around 2 minutes there is a clear statement “that’s what you get with an exum guide, they put in the booter all the way to the top.”
exum guide, exum jacket, video tape?
if it looks and smells like something, it probably is.
proud to take the snomobile AND follow the booter, sure!
maybe there was some real estate deal to be scoped up there? 🙂
When reading this post, I couldn’t help but think of a similar “loophole” utilized by the tribes of the Wind River Reservation to intentionally allow non-member wilderness access to most of their part of the Winds, if the non-member carries a fishing license. Of course Grand Teton Park may not similarly approve of exploiting a fishing “loophole” in their regulations, and the comparison is not apples to apples.
Eric-
I rarely resort to name calling, but geezus man, you truly are a Douche. Lighten up, go back to your yurt, make some chai tea, pull out the yoga mat, do some downward dogs. I mean you have to admit that the law is a bit f’ed. No use blabbering on about it, we all know what the story is here.
This whole thing is getting rather silly. Really wish people would put more energy into more worthwhile causes. There is absolutely no ecological damage done by running across the lake on a sled, which I assume is why the NPS has been lackidasical about enforcing the reg. From what the NPS folks have told me, the fishing only reg was designed to stop folks from doing recreational riding on the lake, which is not what the party in case was doing. I think all the allusions above assuming the NPS is going to be hot to prosecute these guys is just silly. Although inpoint of fact no one is going to be doing so anyway anymore with the 4 stroke rule; as mentioned above the ride across on such a machine is so dicey that few folks are going to attempt it more than once, and concern over this becoming a common occurence is just wasted worry. Still wonder why some of the folks above can’t put more energy into the blatantly illegal, ecological damaging and widespread intrusions into the Palisades Wilderness Study Area and the Teton Wilderness (not to mention riders coming over illegally from Idaho across the crest above Moose Basin into the heart of the N tetons). Friend of mine encountered a few weeks ago an actual guided snowmobile group in the Teton Wilderness bowls north of Breccia. Impossible to get FS to do anything about this; I would love it if the agitated folks above would do something more constructive with their concerns. Even the NPS has only minimally pursued the riders coming over from Idaho, although they have limited resources to catch these guys – hard to pursue the biles on skis. In the old days they encouraged us to stay in the Berry Creek cabin to watch for the biles, but those days are gone.
“It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.” – Voltaire
A little concern after reading some comments – i.e. the comment from Eric about “it is easy for us to get snowmobile access across the lake” – well I would be happy to loan him my sled to try if he wants, but I have a feeling it would end up stranded – that lake is very treacherous, especially this year with the whole west side slushed out. You really have to know what you are doing. Many years ago I had to abandon a much lighter 2 stroke out there, after hours of trying to drag it through the slush. Went back next weekend to find it encased in ice and essntially ruined it chopping with axes to free it. Also fell through the ice once where a pressure ridge had formed and broken up the ice. Sure would not want to see folks blithely assuming they could just get “easy access” by using a sled… The fishing trails are usually but not always ok and are limited, and this year all the fishing holes have large slush accumulations around them in a short time.
Looked like a great way to acess the objective and enjoy the mountains with friends!
What is PURE? Who defines it?? Who cares??? BURN ONE DOWN!!!
Hi, Bruce:
I wanted to take a moment to clarify one of my points, as i see how it was misinterpreted by you — and it’s likely my fault for not being clear.
You wrote:
“A little concern after reading some comments – i.e. the comment from Eric about “it is easy for us to get snowmobile access across the lake” – well I would be happy to loan him my sled to try if he wants, but I have a feeling it would end up stranded…”
My point was to say that it’s easy for one to get access to a snowmobile to go across, not that the actual ride is an easy one. You’ve shown that the ride is non-trivial, and you’ve also shown that access to a ‘bile is simple. Hell, you’ve offered me access to one, and I don’t even know you.
Were you out for a day of fishing, when Stephen, Jim, Alex, and Dave flagged you down for a ride, and did you just happen to be around for a return trip? That’s how stoysluttie1 told the story initially. Is it a minor miracle that you just happened to be there, willing to take them across the lake at dark-thirty… and there for a return trip? Or is it super-trivial these days for anyone to hitch a ride after they’re done skiing Moran?
One reason I ask is that you said numerous times how much people will be unwilling to make the sled trip, yet you go on to say you’ve done it a number of times. If the answer is it’s that easy to hitch a ride, there must be a bunch of sledders on the lake (which would imply that it’s not that hard). I’m not a ‘biler, so I’m not pre-supposing the answer. I’m just honestly curious.
Finally, while I agree that there are many areas with more destruction from snowmobiles (though it is *legal* destruction), the fact that there are other areas getting destroyed more intensely does not have any impact on this discussion.
Why do police still go after people for smoking pot when there are murders to be investigated? It may not be right, but the law is the law until we work and agree to change it. (Seems like one thing we all agree on here is that the law is dumb.)
Stephenkoch.com has a post indicating how he fulfilled his dream of skiing this line in pow, and how he had to bail from it before. I know of others who have gotten the line in pow, top-to-bottom, without use of a ‘bile, so it is possible. Probably involves more commitment, though.
Rando Steve, way to strike a nerve and generate some great dialogue.
I love the comment about skinning from the Dornan’s parking lot!
Ease up on the ice fishermen, folks. Hauling gear out there and freezing your ass off in the middle of winter is not exactly lazy.
Good Post. Couldn’t think of a weaker way to ski Moran. Sure, maybe they found a legit loophole (they didn’t, and should be fined), but in the end the only thing they are doing is detracting form the value of a beautiful line with a beautiful approach, and are less the men than they used to be because of it. Ban motorized, off road vehicles in the park, period. And grow a pair.
P.S. all respect for Koch = GONE. Anyone want to ski Moran legit in a day with me… a w a k e 1 5 6 3 a t h o t m a i l . c o m
It can be done in pow, top-to-bottom, without sled access. Search Steve’s blog for that trip report, and no…skinning across the lake is not easy.
While I’d love to get on some of the ice climbs in the Wind River Canyon, recreational outings are strictly prohibited by the Wind River Reservation. While I think that this policy is lame and it restricts all access to an impressive area, I don’t climb there because it is illegal! Using sleds in the park for other than ice fishing is illegal and like it or not, those are the rules. And personally, I would lose a lot of respect for NPS if they developed a more comprehensive snowmobile access plan for GTNP.
Interesting…
http://www.jacksonholenews.com/article.php?art_id=4277
For me the thing that sticks in my throat with this event is the blatant disregard of the park rules by these skiers by posting a video of it on the web. It refelcts so poorly on all of us that ski in the park. If Stephen Koch could ever do anything without spraying so loudly about it maybe I could respect him a little, but I don’t at all. What about his "don’t poach the powder" ads on the radio and in the paper a few years ago? Now we see it was just another way to market himself.
As to no snowmobiles in the park I’m all for it. Back when it was still legal I had a bile and skied and climbed many things on the park loop and across the lake. I also made many more long ski/climbing trips without a bile and looking back it’s the trips I made without the bile I remember best. It IS all about style. The Skillet had been done before, without a bile, in a day, in soft snow, and solo! Almost 20 years ago by a young guy named Mike Best.
A bile on the lake is a total pain in the ass when there is slush as there is so often. Being in the middle of Jackson Lake while the sun is coming up with a pair of skiis on is something not many are willing to experience and personally I really like those types of things not many are willing to do. So what if you maybe can’t do it in a day round trip. Pick the weather, take a bag and stove, and bivy out on the far side of the lake. Its actually a pretty spectacular place to be in the quiet of a winter night. Its really not that far across the lake. Its alot better place to be than racing home to your computer so you can get your latest trip report posted up.
It’s ironic to see all of the pro-sledders defending this as it is exactly this type of bending of the regulations that eventually gets sledding banned in areas. If you guys are really interesed in keeping the sled option open for ice fishing, it is in your own best interest to police wayward sledders before the Park Service is forced to do it with a broad brush, ie, no sleds – period.
Eric Sorry about the confusion. In fact, it is not easy to get access to 4 strokes; very few people have them, they are no good for shredding powder and are expensive and heavy. Again, I think the ratioanale for this post, i.e. worrying about lots of people doing this is overblown, as can’t see it ever being likely unless a new macxhine is invented. I rarely use mine to cross the lake anymore as conditions needd to be just right. In the video (I am not in it), it takes a whole group of guys to free it from the slush; I don’t usually ski with groups. And while as mentioned I have taken hundreds of sled trips across the lake that was in the old days with 2 strokes, which are much lighter. I am certainly not a “pro snowmobiler” and would be fine with me if they closed off the lake to mechanized vehicles; with my job I could no longer ski the N Tetons, but I have other places. On the other hand, people on this blog seem to be making a huge issue of “illegality”, while even the rangers themselves are not interested in enforcing this law; never heard of anyone getting a ticket; maybe that will change after they see so many skiers enthusiastic about hard line law eforcement to the letter of the law. They know full well the absurdity of giving one guy aticket for doing the same thing as what someone else right next to him is doing; the only diffenece being one guy has a fishing pole. There is no ecological rationale for this except perhaps by keeping folks out of the NTetons it helps out the remnant bighorns – and by extrapolation there may be legitamate ecological reasons for closing much of the N Tetons to winter use.
The poach the Powder campaign mentioned above is one I have worked on for years and refers to designated “no human intrusion” areas closed for wildlife protection. Usage in context above is inappropriate, as situations are not congruent. Maybe the individual above wishes to contribute to this campaign; I can tell him how to do so. He has no right to criticize those who do contribute otherwise.
I am an old guy not a blog reader but ingeneral would appear there is an awful lot of destructive invective and ignorance here which doesn’t reflect well on a community. We need to be more reespectful. Those who are upset about that trip due to their personal code of behaviour should just say so and not drag in personal backbiting, nonissues of illegaality, noniues of “what oif everyone started doing this” etc. Legitamate opinioons do carry more weight when free from inaccurate and demeaning baggage. If they are just used to settle personal scores they can obviously become a derstuctive force.
Bryan – I do not agree with your claim that recreation on the Wind River Reservation is strictly prohibited. Check the following information from the Eastern Shoshone.
http://www.easternshoshone.net/Planning%20%20War%20Horse%20set.htm
It clearly states “Outdoor recreational activities are available all year and include: cross-country skiing, snowmobiling, fishing, hunting, river rafting, birding, historical self-guided tours, tribal pow-wows and cultural events, mountain climbing, and mountain biking. …A tribal fishing permit with a recreational stamp is required to recreate on reservation property.” Granted there are exceptions to this allowance, and I don’t know about the regs for Wind River Canyon. It’s interesting to me to see that there are photo galleries on this blog that show ski touring trips that utilized Reservation land, which is typically off limits. However, I suspect that these trips were done in a legitimate manner by following Reservation regulations that do allow access to this area, if a tribal member is present or employed as a paid guide or “shuttle operator”.
Not that this has much relevance to the topic of this thread, since the Park Service has now clearly come out and said that ski touring is not a valid use of snowmobiles on Jackson Lake – regardless of whether fishing is incorporated into the outing.
the mere fact that mr. koch would bring along fishing gear shows that he is aware of the park rules regarding machines. Bunk or not, the rules were set in place for a reason. a super-blatant disregard such rules (a fucking internet video – seriously!?) shows ZERO respect for the park, where this clown happens to spend a great deal of time making his living. attention-craving, gloryhound, egomaniac prick, oh, and friends. keep it up. you inspire us all.
Wow! Ol’ jc there should take a fucking chill pill. Koch a prick? Riiiight! Stephen is many things to many people but I have never heard anyone describe him as a “prick”. Strong language spoken from ignorance, I venture. Sounds like another hater using the issue for obviously personal reasons. I’m curious to know what those are. Never ceases to amaze me how the anonymous nature of these blog comment threads sometimes foster rather bold statements that would otherwise get someone’s ass seriously pummeled under different circumstances. Koch, being the forgiving soul he is, will probably deal with it more graciously than the manner with which is was delivered.
Great blog post. I’m sure it’s really helping your site visit numbers for your sponsors.
Dale, I was referring specifically to the Wind River Canyon. Read the small sign located directly behind the “Entering Wind River Reservation” sign to see exactly what you are not allowed to do. If you go rafting, climbing, exploring, you are liable to be arrested by tribal police in the canyon. Next time I drive through, I’ll take a picture of it.
your all a bunch of bolgging p****ys. leave your last name! i wannna know who y
ou are!
So, brian, is YOUR last name "seven?" Doubtful.
Anywho… Why the hell is this debate going on here, and not on the perpetrator’s blog?
http://stephenkoch.com/2009/02/17/mount-morans-skillet-glacier-winter-ascent-and-descent/
Funny… no mention of a snowmachine on the perp’s blog… Hmmmmmmmm…
Bryan – Not surprised to hear that Wind River Canyon is off limits to those activities. It pretty much has been my whole life. When my parents were in high school in the early 60’s, they used to be able to raft the canyon and there were even times when water would be released out of Boysen to accommodate speed boat races down the canyon. I would have liked to have seen that!
Somebody better tell Dick Cheney about breaking the law when landing his C-130 in GTNP?! Wish I had been on that tow rope behind SK. Rock on.
Wow, Kevin, dick cheney and c-130s are so relevant to skiing the skillet. While I’m sure the enjoyment you’d get from staring at SK’s ass would be nice, perhaps the handful of brain cells you have left might not do too well sucking in any more exhaust. Maybe you could trade off being driver and passenger. Catcher and receiver. However you want to put it.
If snowmobile access was allowed for skiers on Jackson Lake, the northern range (a spectacular and rarely skied area) would become a circus full of bro-bras getting in trouble and needing rescue. As it is now, with the bulk of the skiers quietly skinning the three miles across and the very rare skier bringing skis across on a sled to Moran (too far to skin across really) and doing so without sticking it in the rangers faces by posting videos on four websites, things are perfect up there. Koch might have fucked it all up for very selfish reasons. I didn’t get anything out of his post other than him trying to prove to the world he still does cool stuff. It’d be much cooler if he just kept it to himself.
I believe the posts weren’t just Koch’s Conor. Yes, he posted a story on his site. Stoy posted on TGR. Romeo posted it here.
jc…i don’t think they had nor mentioned anything about having fishing gear and/or license. Stop creating false accusations. And to call Koch a prick, you must have some personal issues with him. He is a pretty genuine guy.
Steve,
"And because it is in my backyard, I’m going to speak up." and "I would damn sure make sure it showed me abiding by Park policies" Spare us your moral highground b.s. Can we see all your necessary permits that allow you to film and photograph in Teton National Park for a PROFIT. If North Face, Dyanafit, Backcountry.com, etc. are paying you, shouldn’t you be required to attain the same permits that any other photographer is required to have for a photo shoot? Are they mitigating the impact these photo/video sessions are having on the National Park? This is MUCH different than a personal blog that is not making a profit.
You have a much larger impact on the Tetons than a 4 stroke snowmobile crossing the lake. You and your sponsors should at the very least be giving back to the resources that are providing the majority of this site’s attention. This blog IS unlike other media in that it focuses on one very small area. The Tetons. Something should be done to mitigate your impact and I think it’s time the Park Service stepped up. Rather than investigating an entirely legal trip across the lake, I think they should measure the impact this site is having on OUR National Park. You and your sponsors seem to be reaping a whole lot more than the rest of us from your $50 a year Park Pass.
There is a loophole for a reason and a reason why there have been no tickets YET. This blog and the fuss made will cause a problem that is not there. Snow kiting is allowed on the lake and have crossed the lake in less than 15 minutes to moran bay from signal towing one person. Is that bad form? The northern part of the lake is the most dangerous and thats where the river comes in there is almost always water on top of the ice there and lots of people will lose there sleds trying to cross there! I have a four stroke sled and have yet crossed the lake but I would love to before they are banned from the park. Which I agree with! Anybody want to go fishing?
WOW! What is with all the personal attacks?
While I’m not “friends” with Stephen Koch I have had many good conversations with him. I have always found him to be friendly, approachable engaging and generous with his knowledge. I can’t say the same about a lot of people in the area who have done a whole lot less with their lives.
Dick, WTF? Why attack Kevin? Do you even know him. He can’t give his opinion?
Tim, You’re kidding right? You’re comparing breaking Park rules with sharing a passion for a mountain lifestyle. While the Park makes up a good portion of this site there are other ranges and other aspects of the lifestyle involved. It not as if Steve is living the high society life off the this site. He devotes a ton of time to it, gets his time in the mountains and works a job as well. I don’t know if you have taken notice,but, this is a capitalist nation. Money makes our world go around. What “damage” is done? Are you comparing ski/snowboard tracks to a gasoline powered, oil lubricated, internal combustion engine.
Just for the record. I think what they did is wrong. I also don’t think snowmachines, ATV/UTV’s or motorcycles should be allowed in the mountains at all. If you can’t get there on caloric expenditure take up knitting.
Tim – waiting with baited breath your rational that this snowmobile trip across Jackson Lake was “entirely legal.”
Chris – How do you get to the trailhead? Walk? I don’t think so. You get there in a “gaoline powered, oil lubricated, internal combustion engine.” If the argument is that sled use will increase the traffic, I’m saying b.s. I’ll ask you the same question, What “damage” was done? A few more tracks on the frozen lake? This site increases traffic to the Park much more than allowing sleds on the lake. That’s all I’m saying. If it’s legality or “solitude” that’s being questioned here, I’m just pointing out the blatant hypocrisy. I’ve skiied across the lake. It’s not that bad, pretty cool really. (and yes, it is pretty easy, just time consuming) But if Bruce wants to drag me across next weekend, I’ll take the tow.
Hey Chicken – back at ya. How is it illegal? If you take the right gear tomorrow, including skis, can the Park Service legally stop you. NO.
Bruce is right though, all of this, my comments included, are a huge waste of time and energy. We have much bigger problems to solve than this.
This issue seems to have struck a very personal nerve for a lot of people, not surprisingly.
This particular snowmobile trip has been done by many Jackson skiers in recent yeras, all of whom knew it was illegal and never getting caught. Stephen no doubt knew the rules, but chose to post a video of it publicly anyway. Without even getting into the issue of poor form (which I personally don’t think it is), it’s just a challenge to park officials.
Hopefully, the positive that will come out of this is that the park will change it’s policy and actually enforce it. Either everyone gets to use them or no one. I can’t argue with those who want to save calories by using machines, but in my opinion skiing the peaks in the Park shouldn’t be about that. The park and especially the high peaks are the sanctuary where you don’t have to hear engines or worry about them tearing up a virgin slopes.
Thanks Koch! I don’t know if Benny ever gave you a JHAF patch, but if he did give it back. Swift, SILENT and Deep.
I got four calls this weekend about Koch’s exploits and this blog site. This is my first time on Romeos site. I guess I don’t care about or don’t have the time to check out what other people are posting. Like someone else posted; skiing is about as selfish as it gets so why would I care about what Koch is doing. I guess for selfish reasons; his spueing might impact my fun.
We all break rules, laws, or even our own personal morales at times. If we only break rules that only impact ourselves who are we hurting? If koch goes across the lake on a snowmobile, parks it, skies a peak, and then rides back is he doing anything more to the environment then an ice fisherman; I don’t think so. But if he broadcasts it all over the net he impacts us all and that’s where I think he screwed up.
Cheers, enjoy the powder and keep it tight.
Tim, Very good. I drive on a road designed for that specific purpose. Completely legal! No further.
wow!!! there is an airport in the park, a zillion R.V’S and cars all summer long, boats, and a hell of a lot of hikers and climbers. Anyone with enough time and money can buy a trip up the grand. I am not sure if it still happens, but cattle grazed “the park”, there sure is a lot of impact going on there! Snowmobiling across the lake is a drop in a bucket with a hole in it, hell REALLY? It kinda seems people really got their panties in a wad over no big deal other than it wasn’t done your way! Or is it that SK just had a good idea and beat you to it? It is kinda like heli skiing , it’s not really that cool unless you are in the bird! or is everyone just piss that some utah boys came into the hood and schooled it? whatever the case, ha ha it is really pretty damm fuuny, oh and by the way F
the federal government!,
I have been impressed with the attitudes of people who seems to not be able to make anything but rhetorical arguments for or against this issue. Please be mindful when making a statement of fact when it is in actually opinion masquerading as fact.
Our dearly departed G.W. was masterful at the “you’re either with us or against us” approach.
Tim, I would argue that this discussion is important because it makes us evaluate the ethics by which we travel in the mountains.
I personally don’t care that someone ‘biled across the lake, but I do care when someone breaks policy to achieve their goals.
Reading some of these posts reinforces my understanding of the negative sentiments regarding the mountain “culture” in Jackson, and the people who perpetuate it.
I also love to end my completely-rational ramblings by posting “f- the federal government”.
“For the Benefit and Enjoyment of the People.”
I think snowmobiles should be allowed to go across the lake.
The greenies are constantly trying to set Federal and State lands aside from public use.
That mountain is of no use if you can’t get to the bottom of it in a reasonable time to ski it.
Took us ~14 hours car to car to summit Moran and ski the skillet sans snowmobiles. I don’t think that is unreasonable. Should one be allowed to snowmobile up Garnet Canyon in order to make climbing and skiing the Grand a shorter day??
Peter – “That mountain is of no use if you can’t get to the bottom of it in a reasonable time to ski it.”
Sadly, I think this statement sums up the attitude of a lot of people, and it is horrifying to me that so many people think in those terms. Your complete disregard for the way some of us prefer to enjoy those mountains is appalling. If you make your assessment of Mt Moran, or any other mountain’s value based purely on ease of accessibility, then Pike’s Peak becomes the gold standard. I couldn’t disagree more. It took a partner and I over 20 hours of “benefit and enjoyment” to ski it car to car in similar conditions last year, and I still made it to work the next day… Earn it or crochet, and if you want to make a fuss about it, then we should be fair, and ban all biles in the park.
Peter – “That mountain is of no use if you can’t get to the bottom of it in a reasonable time to ski it.”
You’d have a lot more free time if you didn’t have to work so much to pay off your new 4-stroke sled, trailer, registration & license fees, gas & oil, maintenance and big rig to tow it. The pathetic thing is that all of this expense only saves you a few hours on a trip that has been done numerous times before sans sled. Poaching it under the guise of ice fishing is right up there with faking a summit rescue to get a heli ride to the top.
Tim – Did Koch’s party have fishing gear?
More importantly, did they go fishing? I don’t remember seeing that on the video…
Thank You Awake1563 – this says it pretty much ALL. The attitude of : “I exist, so YOU and the World owe me or stay out of my way” is a bunch of CRAP – the Park system wasn’t created to give anyone bragging rights or a job; the Parks and their resources are designated preservation areas for the appreciation of rare natural features. If these lend themselves to some activities that amuse, energize and inspire Spirits of the Wilderness, that is just the icing on the cake ; but don’t trash the cake. Keep up this “lowering the bar” and pretty soon we won’t have any real challenges left – though some of us can and will take the High Road – for the sense of personal accomplishment and NOT for what others say or do!!
Peter- Are you for real? How many people have been in awe of Mt. Moran simply by viewing it from a far. If we were to expand on your theory that the mountain is of no use if you can’t get to the bottom of it in a reasonable time to ski it, I’d like to point out that you ski it from the top. Let’s put in a tram!! Reasonable for me is no more than 20 minutes. If the line is more that 30 minutes long I expect hot chocolate!
This thread has gone too far and all we’re doing is mocking each other with fake screen names. Steve please remove this thread so that I am not tempted to belittle anymore rednecks.
Lookie lookie…
http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=4297
‘Tis a shame.
homie got shit-canned…..
I can’t help wondering if some local icefishermen won’t be looking for some western justice for endangering their activities.
What a complete shitshow this is. I feel sorry for all involved. Makes your community seem a little less desirable.
Is this even news in the bigger picture?
Steve,
This whole experience has been upsetting.
Maybe thought should be given to possible outcomes of posts. It upsets me because I feel that people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. What I’m saying is that SK and a few others broke Park Regulations and you essentially called them on the carpet for this. You called them on the carpet by posting the You Tube link….which specifically mentioned names…on your website – which is for the most part a news source for many backcountry travelers. You could have easily started the topic of debate without posting the You Tube video that incriminates SK and the others from Park City.
Sure SK and the others violated Park Regulations, but don’t you do this too???? Unless you have a permit from GTNP to film and display your footage of your ski tours within GTNP for commercial gain aren’t you also in violation of Park Regulations???? I’m pretty sure that you benefit commercially from this website – especially with increased visitors stimulated from controversial posts – with your sponsorship from BD, Suunto, Dynafit, etc. Now you could have just such a permit, but I doubt it… Maybe someone has the desire to turn this blog into the Park Service as evidence.
To hell with starting from Dornans, in the name of environmental purity, who’s going to tag the first door to door skin/climb/ski/skin of Moran sans car? Steve? Eric? Galaxy Chicken?
If these comments are any indicator of the up tight ultra core types that are in and around Jackson, I’m glad I don’t live there. Sheesh.
randosteve
Mar 26th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
“I believe the rule is that you can sleds for ice fishing only…and they have to be best available technology. I think some 2-strokes fall in that category too.
But I bet there is some good ice fishing in Bearpaw and Moran Bay! ”
In the original post there’s a smiley winky face. Since the outcome of this whole situation has become severely overwhelming (SK’s being fired from Exum) I’ll be the first to admit that there will be a phone call into the NPS about whether or not Romeo has permits for filming in the Park. Especially after you (Steve et al) have pondered exactly what these guys did.
This all sucks because I bet the town of Jackson and the ego’s that live there are all looking at these guys as criminals. Seriously, what is the difference between a fishing pole and a ski? Total joke.
Steve- Hope you have the sack to collect your citation like Koch.
Talk about out of hand. I wonder if Steve saw this coming at the start when he posted the vid. I’m sure all the SK haters out there are happy now. Perhaps the outcome would have been the same since Stephen posted it on his personal site. We’ll never know. TetonAT probably garners more traffic and it exploded onto the front page of the papers soon thereafter.
It is true that we must be held responsible for our actions and many would argue that Stephen made his bed and is now sleeping in it. However, the guy has a wife and son and now has one less source of income to support his family. I, for one, am not celebrating that hardship in these times for what is ultimately stupid petty shit in the grand scheme of things. The Exum board, fearing their own livelihood, chose the only politically viable option and canned a solid senior guide. It’s a loss for both parties. In addition, attention is now turned toward Randosteve and the legal ramifications of this site and it’s content. More drama to come, I presume…
Brian,
Well said. I feel bad for SK and his family. What a minor issue in a world full of much bigger problems.
Johann,
I disagree that guides or outfitters who disregard regulations is a minor issue – they are stewards of the resource and should be held to ethical standards.
Dale,
Agreed, he made a lapse in judgement. But does he deserve having his name posted on this blog and in news articles for everyone to then assault him over what is arguably a minor infraction?
Give me a break. This blog post is pathetic.
sled stuck? justice.
spraying? criticism.
fine? warranted.
firing? bullshit.
http://www.jhunderground.com/2009/02/25/tragedy-in-the-tetonat-tempest/
sometimes these threads get a little too carried away, as Steve is finding out.
I’d bet that blogs are protected — else guidebook writers and even Renny Jackson would have to fork out for a commercial permit.
aren’t there more important things to fight about?
The punishment did not fit the crime.
Koch has been a long time Exum guide, and a good one at that I suspect. Guiding is his main career. For Exum to fire him over this is absurd… suspend him maybe… but fire him? Seriously. The course of his entire future is probably altered if he remains “fired” by Exum, and that’s pretty severe punishment for a momentary lapse of non-life-threatening judgment on a fricken ski tour!
A very bad call by Exum for firing Koch, and a very bad call by TetonAT for exploiting the situation.
@johann – I’m sorry, but if you don’t think a world famous snowboarder and Exum guide posting a video of himself doing something illegal isn’t worthy of discussion or news coverage in this valley, feel free to turn on Sesame Street.
Steve: “Talk about out of hand. I wonder if Steve saw this coming at the start when he posted the vid.”
get a clue.
Before this site, the vid was posted *by the skiers involved* , on TGR, a site with traffic that dwarfs that received by tetonat.com, and on youtube, one of the most popular web sites in existence. On top of that, Koch posted the video on his own damn site.
y’all accusing Romeo of generating the publicity and its eventual fallout are full of shit. The people performing the infraction are the ones that posted it up on youtube for all to see. They broadcast it to the world using the biggest and loudest megaphones that they could find. Now it’s Romeo’s fault that it came back to bite them?
“off the box”
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=off%20the%20box
GalaxyChicken,
Thanks for the directions down Sesame Street! I was feeling a bit lost for a moment there. Now I have direction as to the REAL problems our world is facing.
Let’s see……a failing economy, Iran’s nukes, and SLEDS ON JACKSON LAKE!
if only they’d left the video camera at home, none of this would have ever happened…
I will throw Tony in with all the other excitable commenters on this topic, getting all feisty, telling me to “get a clue”. Very entertaining. My point is that I don’t go to SK’s site, nor do I attempt to wade through the tens of thousands of stupid videos on YouTube. TGR? Never been there. I would also guess that a portion of TetonAT’s readership ignores these sites as well. I realize this video is posted elsewhere, but I venture far more people are exposed to it through a local source and these are the folks who will obviously have an opinion and make the powers that be aware of the situation. The rest is history.
It’s pretty funny that one of the “accused” is the owner of Backcountry.com. He’s laughing all the way to the bank. Thousands of people see his little ad that is at the bootom of every one of Steve’s blogs. Click here, buy this, support Steve and Backcountry.com. (Skinny Skis is ok with this? What a great boss. “Sure Steve, you can pimp somebody’s else’s merchandise too, that’s fine, we love internet competition in this slowing economy”)
Jim, do you still have questions on how this blog differs from Renny’s guidebook? Does Renny get paid by North Face, Dynafit, BACKCOUNTRY.COM etc. etc. every time you open his book?
Swift SILENT and Deep. Love it. World movie premiere tonight by the way. (Shhhhh….don’t tell anybody) Morals and “Rules” are a funny thing when profit comes in to play.
Look it’s easy for all of us to play armchair quarterback but it seems pretty simple.
1. The bureaucracy of the federal government has created a situation in which one set of users has certain rights that another set of users does not. This is not an uncommon situation and exists in all facets of regualtions.
2. The rules, although potentailly unfair, are well commmunicated through the park and its clear that those involved knew that they were breaking the rules.
3. Not only were rules broken, but the video was well publicizied by those involved and placed on websites that allow public sharing.
4. To put it bluntly, “You don’t shit where you eat”. Regardless of the situation, Steve should have had the foresight to see that he would force difficult decisions to be made. His employeer replys on a strong relationship with the Park for thier businesses success.
5. I have been in the situation where I have had to terminate an employee that did good things and was a high performer. Exum is probably the most respected guiding service in the country. They simply cannot tolerate an employee creating a situation which clearly violates the rules of the NPS then ahving the lack of sense to broadcast it around the world. Exum is dependant upon a concession contract with the NPS and cannot afford to jeopardize this relationship. The NPS are not the bad guys, but I think would expect that a leading concessionaire would not allow such incidents to go unaddressed.
Look, Steve is one of the leading guides in the area. His accomplishments in many areas are quite significant. No one else is to blame for him termination. He needs to accept the situation.
Johann is right, in the grand scheme of things this is a very minor issue. Unfortunately if Steve or anyone one else had a problem with the policy ti could have been brought up in a differnt way. Not one in recent memory have I ever heard of anyone requesting that backcountry skiers have the right to use snowmobiles to cross that lake.
I can’t take it anymore. I wish these guys would of waited til spring and swam across the lake and then skied the Skillet and swam back out in a day. I need a face shot :<)
I bet the discussion at Exum was pretty short.
“He did WHAT? He’s FIRED!”
Exum only exists through staying in the good graces of the Park Service and although SK might have been an excellent guide, there’s no shortage of people lined up for that job.
After Coombs got caught and banned from JH and he went on to bigger and better things, so perhaps SK will as well.
Koch’s spraying finally backfired on him.
Most of the posts on this thread show all too clearly how the standard of what is considered pristine gets diluted and watered down with each successive generation. At this rate in a few years it’ll be OK to have a ski lift installed on the skillet and heli-skiing on Falling Ice Glacier! It’s all good, eh?
Great comment, Norm, Mike Best did it long ago, solo, sans support.
people, rise to the challenge, don’t lower the challenge down to your level. If you’re not up to it, go ski 25 Short. Do it twice “in a day”. Work up to three times in a day, then go do the King on the way home. Then, with a bit of luck you can take on bigger and bigger challenges as your skill and fitness level increases.
‘just kidding on that. I know SK is fit enough to do it sans ‘bile, it’s the constant spraying that gets to me (and got him in trouble).
Tim –
“Jim, do you still have questions on how this blog differs from Renny’s guidebook? Does Renny get paid by North Face, Dynafit, BACKCOUNTRY.COM etc. etc. every time you open his book?”
Jim may not, but I do…
http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/productdetails.cfm?PC=144
looks like Renny and Leigh (rightfully) received and are possibly still receiving payment from The Mountaineers for their book, filled with stories from and pictures taken in the Tetons. Are you saying it is different merely because of the way they quantify their readership (page hits vs copies sold)? It makes as much sense as the rest of your arguments here.
A fact based discussion, mentioning no names would have been useful and possibly interesting.
I am saddened by this judgmental and personal approach – just as I was disappointed by the personal attacks made against Mr. Romeo when he butted heads with the resort and Search and Rescue. Here again, discuss the facts: no need to be personal and vindictive.
I have found this blog neither enjoyable nor informative. Worse,it has had harmful consequences on a human being and his family far out of line with the initial transgression.
I am passionate about ski mountaineering and back country skiing and have had the privilege of experiencing it all over the world. This is NOT what it’s all about.
Brian, how hard is it to understand?
Koch & co publicized their exploit. They chose to make it public. They wanted to make it public. That publicity burned them.
You put something up on youtube because you want other people to see it. Koch put the video on his website because he *wanted* other people to see it. Guess what, other people saw it.
Yet you continue to imply that Romeo is responsible for the results of the publicity that Koch and co initiated and asked for.
notice that steve just put it out there. koch posted it first. i bet you guys really make steve laugh for being such asses and going on and on. shut up and go ski powder or are you guys to stuck in the real world to actually know what that is about. its puking out so lets see some stokage, woop woop
f#$k it huck it
steve how do u live with ur self. Be a man and take it up with him face to face that’s the wyoming way men do it. I defended u on the SARS thing but u will never get a hit from me again on ur site.
Derek, What are you talking about? Take what up “face to face”? It’s not as if Romeo was up there filming it and then ran back to his computer and said “Look what these guys did.” It’s just not good form to BREAK THE LAW and post it for all the world to see. Romeo didn’t drive the sled, film it or post it first. He didn’t get Koch fired. Koch did. I guess if your going to blame Romeo well then you should blame the company who invented the camera they used, the company who invented the computer used to post it, the companies who made the ski and snowboard equipment, the snowmachine company, and heck why not blame nature for the mountains, snow and ice.
The park service is controlled by washington beurocrats, influeced by lobbists, the result is a cast system based on recreational user group profiling.
People who break the law compromise themselves, in this case the people responsible are compromising a lot of users who OBEY THE LAW. In many instances the powers that be will use a high profilecase, like this one, to further their agenda.
People I know have been busted off Jackson lake for sailing, yes, sailboats. The park officials said they we’re visually offensive. However, it’s ok to use a motorboat of any type as long as the fee is paid.
Before breaking the rules one should attempt to understand the ramifications, this can be diifficult due to the fact it requires a perspective beyond short term objectives and ego.
Wow, Dick (feb 23)…that’s pretty chicken-shit of you to post a comment like that against me, and not leave your full name? Let me explain to your narrow-minded pea-size brain what I was implying with my comment…and then maybe you can be more of a man, and explain what you are implying by your comment to me? The Park Service allows snowmobiles on the lake for fisherman, but not skiers…kind of a contradiction…and they also let Cheney land his C-130 in the Park (airport). Landing planes at the JH airport larger than 747’s is supposed to be illegal…skiers driving snomobiles is illegal…seems there is a little more damage landing/flying C-130’s, than a little snowmobile.
I like to ski, not skin, and I think if sleds can go icefishing, ehy can’t they access skiing too? It was also a four strokesled, the same if not less emission than a car.